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The very essence of a good project manager is that his/her projects come in on time and within budget, with clear limits of scope and so on and so forth. BUT what if you are working with the opposite and never learns?

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Just to make sure we answer really your question... which is your main concern? that your project manager never learns? or that you do not learn? or are you worried about the consequences of a potential project failure? – Steven Kass Feb 6 at 14:23

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that depends on whether you are his boss or one of the developers

if you're his boss, the answer is obvious: feedback, training, tracking, and - if necessary - discharge

if you one of the developers...good luck!

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Beware of bad PM's with good reputations. Their primary skill appears to be appeasing high profile sponsors and spin doctoring bad results. This answer is directed to people who are developers on a project with such a PM. Hope it's not off topic if that's not the point of your question.

If you're a developer on a project with a PM like that, you have to take steps to cover your ass. If the project fails but somehow the PM manages to come out smelling like roses then more than likely some buggy software has been forced into production. When that software fails, some time after the project has been closed, the blame will fall squarely on the shoulders of the development team.

If the above describes you, you are in a difficult situation. You can't bad-mouth the PM, because you are most likely up against someone with superior ass-covering skills. What you have to do is to document scope changes religiously and re-estimate effort - unfortunately this will distract you from your primary job which is implementing the features that have already been included in scope. Request that all changes you are asked to make are properly documented and follow up with the PM to ensure that all stakeholders are aware of your changes in effort. Do not agree with statements like "that should be easy". Try to diplomatically protest comments like "a competent programmer should be able to complete that in no time".

Don't forget you are part of the team. Don't fall into the role of the outsider who complains about everything and refuses to step up to new challenges. Talk like a team player:

"just like everyone else on this project we are working hard to make it a success. right now we are deep into the current scope but we are dedicated to giving this new scope change the appropriate attention. Please give us time to assess it and we'll let you know how it affects our estimates... but also please be aware that the time to assess will cause delays in our current deliverable - we need to see that reflected in the schedule before we start."

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+1 I agree with the proposed way to handle scope changes. Very nice and useful quote also. – Steven Kass Feb 6 at 14:25
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I would say the essence of good project manager is that they provide valuable information to the client and the team so that both can do their jobs' well.

Not every project can be delivered on-time or on-budget. Sometimes there are factors outside of a pm's control. However, a good pm keeps everyone informed, tries to mitigate the risks, helps facilitate solutions and makes sure the client and team members are all on the same page.

It could be that there's a disconnect between your perception of what this pm is supposed to do and what they actually do.

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Interesting point on the "essence of good project manager". – Steven Kass Feb 6 at 14:25
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The question is a little vague, but if the projects are continually late and/or over-budget I would imagine that he/she won't be a PM for long.

In the meantime, document EVERYTHING. Makes notes about when scope changes were given to you and your responses. Copy others (even co-workers, not necessarily superiors) on email responses to same. Send emails detailing concerns with scope changes, schedule changes, revised estimates, red flags, etc. Put everything in writing so there's a trail. You may not be able to prevent the project from failing, but you will be able to demonstrate that at least you were aware of the problems and were trying to do something about it.

As PJM said, it's a game of CYA. And it doesn't have to be complaining, it can all be done in a FYI manner. "I've looked a the changes and here's how I see them affecting us." Copy a superior or team member asking for corroboration or input. It shows that you're on top of things and initiating the conversation, it shows the PM that others are watching, and it protects you.

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I am not a fan of the CYA mode. That is a sign and symptom of a dysfunctional, low performing team. The PM has the responsibility of developing a high performing team but the team member also has responsibilities here.

First, coming in on budget and schedule is not the only indicator of a good PM. Projects bust their budget and schedule all the time and can still be deemed successful. PMs that manage this, ie, have a strong EV capability that forewarns of bad variances, strong risk program that mitigates where possible, are in my eyes successful despite blowing their budget and schedule. Ultimately, if the customer is happy, the project is a success.

As a team member, what are you doing to support the PM besides covering your six? PMs have strengths and weaknesses; we all have this. Nobody is a master of all PM domains. If they say they are, they are lying or delusional. As a team member, if you have strengths where your PM is weak, are you jumping in to support the PM? Are you advising him of his threats and helping him keep out of rough waters? These are symptoms of a high performing team; no CYA necessary.

If you protect your boss, the boss will protect you, and the team and project will benefit.

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While I agree with almost everything you said, it all hinges on the PM carrying his part and being a Manager at some level (developing a h-p team, managing risk, etc.) The impression I got from the question is that this is not the case. In that situation, all you can do is your level best to help the project succeed, but at the same time you have to protect yourself. – Trevor K Nelson Feb 9 at 21:12
I agree with you, as well; however, I was approaching this from the 'you never really know what's going on' angle. Comes down to perception of what's going on. From a philosophical standpoint, what does unorganized mean? My organization method could very well be a train wreck to you, or vice versa. The writer could be a detailed person with OCD tendencies where the PM might be a forward thinking visionary. Point is, the team needs to exploit strengths of its members and sort of protect each other where weaknesses are. – David E PMP Feb 9 at 22:01
Agreed. The team has a responsibility to each other and (and in fact the reason for a 'team' at all) to as you say, exploit strengths and backstop weaknesses. I was approaching this from the asker's description of 'disorganized' coupled with 'opposite of on time, within budget, clear limit of scope' which to me indicates no organizational method or leadership. As you have pointed out very well, there are many ways to look at a problem. – Trevor K Nelson Feb 9 at 22:25
@David E PMP If the PM really is organized, why does a team member perceive him as unorganized? Would that not show at least poor communication or poor team spirit from the PM? – Steven Kass Feb 9 at 22:29
Not at all. There are many ways one can organize himself to be functional in his job. There are many ways to complete a task. It is so easy to disagree, where both sides of the argument have degrees of correctness. I disagree with my boss some of the time, but I have his back all of the time. Also, I do not mean to hold the PM harmless in the above scenario. I was challenging the writer to take a look at his/her contribution to whatever was going on. You can only change what you're doing, not someone else. – David E PMP Feb 9 at 23:08
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